In our latest Foodie Profile we are joined by Culinary Historian and author, Karima Moyer-Nocchi who is based in Italy. In this Q&A, Moyer-Nocchi shares her professional journey, the most misunderstood aspect of Italian food, essential pasta dishes to try in Italy, and more.
1. Please tell us a little bit about where you currently live and work and your journey in becoming a specialist in Italian food history
I’ve lived in Italy for nearly 35 years. I teach in the English department at the University of Siena, but my research area is culinary history. I have always had an affinity for both history and food, but my specific study of Italian food history as the focus of my intellectual industry began formally just a little over 15 years ago. It’s really difficult to say because I was here in Italy, and the learning and experience was going on all the time, but the formal aspect of writing and teaching didn’t happen until later – and rightly so. Historical scholarship requires years of investment as does the sensitivity for and exposure to food and foodways of a culture.
2. What are some ancient dishes we can still try at restaurants in Italy today?
Well, ancient is a word and historical is another. What we can talk about more accurately are antecedents and foodways. The very fact of centering a meal around a starch, as is the case with pasta, rice, and polenta, is Greco-Roman. Indeed, they felt it was what distinguished them as superior, it was what made them civilized as opposed to barbarian. There is surprisingly little that remains of, say, the Middle Ages or Renaissance – though people like to think of Italian food as being timeless. There is, however, continuity with the past, concepts that thread through time, pasta being one of those. But the way those foods were once enjoyed do not appeal to most people today. When I recreate historical meals, I have to pick and choose carefully. Most of what are considered historical dishes found on a restaurant menu are about 150 years old at best. There are exceptions, though, especially now with the rural revival frenzy and attempts at historical renditions.
3. In your opinion, what cities or areas have the most interesting culinary history in Italy and why?
Well, I wrote a book on the cultural history of food in Rome, The Eternal Table, so I have a bias for that. Piemonte has a fascinating history, particularly given its proximity to France and the cultural “contamination” that occurred. Sicily would be next, owing to the history of domination, exploitation, and mixing of peoples there over a long period of time. Same holds true for the area in and around Naples.
4. What would you say is the most misunderstood or factually incorrect aspect about Italian food history?
I do a lecture on the history of pasta and the Italian culinary identity. That is the most misunderstood and factually incorrect aspect hands down. People love the gastromythology about it, and there are so many sources that feed their confirmation bias. Carbonara is, from that perspective, a fascinating sociological study. It is such a recent dish and all of the whoopla about how it is supposed to be made – as if it had forever been made by Roman grannies the “right way” – absolutely hysterical (if it weren’t so tedious and tiresome). It is a very, very recent dish and the “right way” was established about 20 years ago.
5. How do you trace foods and dishes back to their origin? Can you share an example?
A culinary historian who specializes in Italian food relies upon a certain arsenal of culinary resource literature (cookbooks in particular) that is finite. However, there are also a lot of non culinary resources, like trade records, diaries etc with valuable information about food that one investigates on a case-by-case basis. In addition to that, there are discoveries that are being made all the time – from excavations, sunken ships, things tucked away in attics etc. but those finds are few and far between.
A culinary historian has to also be able to connect surrounding information about politics, culture, religion, architecture etc. all of which inform culinary and dietary habits and choices.
An example from my current research is macaroni and cheese, which is the (yet unannounced formally) topic of my next book. I have traced it back to ancient Rome and followed it through time and space to the 20th century. That is the job of people like myself to inform interested others about how foods got to where they are from where they have been. This dish is a long and interesting ride.
6. What in your opinion was the most exciting historical food period in Italy and why? Could you provide some examples of the types of ingredients and preparations?
That’s hard for a historian to answer because there are so many different perspectives on food history. I am interested in people and the relationship to food. My approach takes a hard look at the sociology of food. I am interested in the way that relationship changes over time, who is eating, who is working to get what food on what table, and what that food or those dishes represent. Ok, I am getting too into the weeds here. Part of the problem is that the so-called Dark Ages, really were dark for Italian food because for about 800 years there is almost no information about it. When it arises again in the Late Middle Ages, we can see that some pretty cool stuff has happened on the foodscape in the interim.
7. You offer historical Italian cooking classes. Could you describe some of the offerings and how you approach cooking ancient food with modern ingredients, measurements and equipment?
I want to encourage people to experience history through food – to use cooking and eating as a form of time travel. Food is a portal into the past. That said, I do not advocate an archeological approach to the recreation of historical dishes. If modern conveniences do not disrupt the overall experience, then that is what I use and how I teach others. I always liken it to music. No one is going to say we should not listen to Early Music if it is not played on ancient instruments in drafty halls. No. We sit in comfortable seats in auditoriums and listen to Vivaldi played on modern instruments and enter into the sublime just the same. Same deal with food – and with food – there is often a wonderful story about it that makes it taste even better.
8. What books or cookbooks would you recommend for lovers of Italian food history? (published in English)
Chewing the Fat – an Oral History of Italian Foodways. This is a myth-busting book that puts Italian food history in a new light. Many people have told me that it completely changed their perspective on Italy and Italian food. In fact, when I was researching and writing it, I, too, underwent a transformation. I realized that despite my studies and the length of time that I have been here, that I too had drunk the kool-aid of the nostalgia industry. My experience of Italy was forever changed – and enhanced – by writing that book.
9. For visitors to Italy, what are the top dishes you recommend they seek out and why?
I recently participated in a New York Times panel as an expert on pasta and the five of us came up with a list of the 25 Essential Pastas to Eat in Italy. That would be a great place to start. We also gave the corresponding restaurants. Setting up a trip based on those dishes would be a great way to tour Italy!
10. What are some of the longest lasting food rituals associated with Italy, that extend to the present day?
Well, the longest lasting ritual, if you want to call it that, is the very fact of having a starch (carb) staple surrounded by or mixed with a smaller quantity of “other “ ingredients. This is a Greco-Roman concept, even though it seems perfectly normal to us. It separates “civilized” people from “barbarians,” who foraged and hunted. It is what in current Italian is referred to as “pane” and “companatico.” The former is your base, and the later is the accompaniment.
For more about Italian food history, follow Karima on her Instagram @historicalitalianfood
